Announcement....
A debate is going to be held on the Living Truth Podcast between Jason Bosarge from Josephsmith.com and Eric Hoffman from the One Living Truth Ministry. The topic of discussion will be “Salvation.”
How is salvation received? What must one do in order to be saved? Is salvation given based on works or faith? The debate will held and recorded on Jan 11. 2007. Since a podcast is a recorded audio and unavailable in a live format, questions for either Eric or Jason will have to be submitted prior to the podcast. So if you have any questions for Eric or Jason, please leave them here in the comment section in this post. All questions will remain anonymous unless otherwise specified by the commenter. Please keep your questions specific to the topic of “Salvation.”
Thank you and God bless.
posted by Melissa @ 1:53 PM
22 comments
22 Comments:
If salvation is a gift that has to be received, then how can a baby become saved prior to their infant death if they don't know how to receive it? Keep in mind the Bible doesn't touch upon this.
This question is directed to Eric.
Eric, if God is so just and fair why does he send people that are moral, good family centered people to hell if they do not believe as you do?
A BYU Devotional was given by Bruce R. McConkie on Sunday June 1, 1980. In this speech he said the following:
“The saints are cleansed by the blood of Christ AFTER they keep ALL the commandments.”
Jason,
Do you keep all the commandments? If not why?
Question for both Jason and Eric:
If I deny what you both believe am I going to burn in everlasting hell?
Greets,
-James
If Jesus died (or paid) for all of our sins then wouldn't it be that neither faith nor good works are required? It seems as though we are already saved regardless.
Eric,
Is there salvation outside of your calvary church?
Jason,
Is there salvation outside the Mormon church?
-Tim
What is do the historical writings of the leaders of the early church (1st or 2d centuries after Christ) say about how one achieves salvation? Is it different from what the Mormon church teaches today?
A question to Eric:
Please explain your view on
Mt 25:31-46.
In it, peole are judged according to their deeds.
People who have helped their neighbors in need will go to heaven.
(34-40).
People who have not helped their neighbors in need will go to hell.
(41-46).
Please do not avoid the problem by switching to other books which were written by other authors, but explain this text only by itself.
I can read nothing about
"Those who believe in evangelical doctrines will be saved, regardless of their bad deeds."
and
"Those who do not believe in the evangelical religious interpretation of the bible will lose their soul forever, even if they have tried all day to do good and help their neigbor.
Either the bible is wrong, or you are wrong, Eric.
Larry
A question for both Jason and Eric:
I think the key term in the difference between the evangelical point of view (Eric) and the LDS point of view(Jason) on salvation is perfection.
Every religion agrees that we should live moral lifes and do good.
The difference between religions lies in the details of the moral canon, but also about how perfect we need to be and how perfect we can be.
1) The evangelical point is that we cannot be perfect. Therefore, we need to rely on Jesus' sacrifice.
However, this point of view might leadto a neglect morals.
2) The LDS point of view stresses the importance of morality.
Am I right Jason that "all we can do" means an attitude of "giving our best, try as hard as possible"?
This attitude may lead to exhaustion if we cannot live up to our standards.
3) Other religions do not stress perfection so much. E.g. in buddhism, the relative goodness of our deeds determines the quality of the rebirth:
a)very high morality, pure conduct => rebirth in heaven
b)less perfect => rebirth as an angel
c) less perfect =>rebirth as a human
d) less perfect, greedy behavior, based on pleasures => rebirth as an animal
e) evil and greedy behavior => rebirth as a hungry ghost
f) the real evil guys => rebirth in hell
Like in Mormonism, we see a greater spectrum of possibilities, therefore, behavior can be judged more fine-grained than in the biblical heaven-or-hell paradigm.
In many respects, Mormonism resembles Buddhism.
Can you clarify your ideas about perfectionism with regard to salvation?
Why can't we be perfect?
If we can't be perfect, why do we need to be perfect?
Isn't God injust to ask the impossible?
I suppose this aspect might shed some clarification on the differing points of views.
As a concrete example:
Eric, your daughter certainly is a nice and lovely girl.
However, if she makes a mistake, how do you treat her?
a) with love, telling her not to do wrong again, maybe punishing her a bit, but then telling her that you still love her.
b) beating her up, or even beating her to death.
If you answer a), why do you worship a god which acts according to b?
Greets,
Jane Winsley.
A question to both of you:
If only members of your church can have salvation, then a huge amound of all humans who ever lived will be lost forever.
Take only the current statistics:
420 million evangelicals / 6.5 billion people = 6.46%.
So God was not able to save 93.54% of all people currently living.
This calculation does not include the billions of people who died before Christ came on earth. They are all lost forever.
Talking about the LDS church:
Your statistics are even worse. 12.5 million members is a ridiculos fraction. Even with all the efforts of baptism for the dead, the largest quantity of people will never be baptised by you.
From the people leaving egypt going to Israel, hhow many names and birthdates do you have???
All in all, if salvation depended on an evangelical "born again" psychic experience or the wearing of special mormon underwear, your allmighty God would have lost most of the people.
What grade would you give to a child which gains less than 1% of the total points?
F - Failed.
To Eric: Is the evangelical God a total loser?
To Jason: Is the LDS God a total loser?
Brandon R.
This goes to Eric.
Why does following one false prophet (Joseph Smith) lead to eternal condemnation, while following another false prophet (Chuck Smith) leads to eternal salvation.
Either, following a false prophet leads to condemnation, then both of you are damned, or God doesn't care, in that case both of you need not fear anything.
Don't answer with the "taken that out of context" argument, or Jason may use that argument on all question ever asked to him.
"...Oh Eric, you have taken that out of context..."
Jamie.
Acting morally is beneficial for all human beings. Abiding in moral conduct is universal, not restricted to particular sects.
Although different religions place different emphasis on details (Mormons, Muslims and Buddhists ideally don't drink alcohol, Muslim women wear a veil, etc.) the golden rule "Do unto others as you would want others to do unto you." is universal and proclaimed by all wise people (Confucius, Mose, etc.)
Believing in an abstract person noone has a personal experience with (we cannot see, hear God) makes no difference.
There is no difference between an Evangelical and a Mormon.
Both can be bigots, both can be loving, both can be resentful, both can be caring, both can be superstitious, both can be faithful, both can be holier-than-thou, both can be meek.
Why shouldn't we try to live as harmonious and peacefully together as possible? Isn't that the only thing which counts?
If God has a body, is trinitarian or three personages, it does not change a thing!
If God was a trinity, do you act differently to your neighbor? No.
If God had a body of flesh and blood, do you act differently to your neighbor? No.
If you wear holy underwear, does that change anything? No.
(The sister missionaries raped in South Africa prove that wearing those is no protection from anything!)
You are nitpicking about details of your own theology, and all this to boost your theological ego.
Jesus was very harsh towards the pharisees, because they had a holier-than-thou attitude.
You are doing the very same thing.
But you replaced your arrogance of certain conducts, of certain rituals with arrogance about your doctrines, your beliefs, your religion.
Instead of "I clean my hands before eating, I do not talk to unclean persons, I do this and that." (pharisees), you think,
"My religios teacher teaches the correct docrine, my theological beliefs are the only way, my interpretation of the bible."
You see, the pharisees thought "I,I,I", you think "My, my, my".
No difference! You are pharisean bigots.
Act morally, live peacefully together with people of all beliefs, and according to the bible, you wont have to fear anything (I refer to some poster above who discussed Mt 25 already).
Why do you neglect the most important thing, morality, and emphasize superficial beliefs which you only promote to boost your ego?
Eric, the bible teaches:
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
On your website and in your podcast, you constantly judge Mormons and condemn them to hell forever (remember your quote in podcast 3?)
Therefore, if the bible holds true, on the last day you will face severe judgement. Don't you fear for your salvation???
(If I were you, I would!)
Svenni.
I got a question for Jason:
According to evangelical theology, everyone who is not evangelical will go to hell and suffer eternal condemnation.
What is the LDS standpoint on hell?
I read that instead of heaven, there is a threefold concept celestial/terrestrial/telestial kingdom, but who goes to hell?
And where would Eric, according to your opinion go?
Greets,
Vince.
For the pod debate:
Eric,
Paul taught in Hebrews 5:9
9 And being made perfect, he [Jesus] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Paul also taught in Romans 10:16
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Paul also taught we are to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12)
Since Paul teaches that we are only saved by obeying Christ, how can you say nothing is required for forgiveness or Salvation? Acts 2:38 clearly teaches that baptism is the vehicle God used for dispensing forgiveness to believers, that is people who trust in him AND live their lives according to that faith.
How can you say we just need an intellectual concept of a trinitarian god to be saved, which is the same as saying that no effort on our part is required for salvation?
Thanks,
Bob
My question to Eric:
About my background:
I was raised as an evangelical, but I never had a close relationship to God and Jesus, they were mere concepts to me, not living persons I could have community with.
One year ago, two LDS missionaries approached me in the street, and we started a conversation.
To make the story short, I converted and was baptized into the Church.
Since then, I have a much closer relationship to God and Jesus, I know that they are real, that they love me, I pray regularly, and above all, I feel the Holy Spirit working within me. I have become a whole new person:
I care more about others, I enjoy working in my ward with others, etc.
Why do you claim that I would lose my soul forever, being an LDS, when my relationship to God and Jesus only started when I became an LDS?
The evangelical God is full of arrogance and hatered. Since I became LDS, I know that God is loving, caring and that Jesus is my way to Salvation.
My experience directly conflicts with your claims.
With love,
Gina Simson.
My question to Eric:
Mose was a Jew, not a Christian.
Will he lose his soul forever and burn in eternal hell, being tortured by demons over burning hellfire and brimstone?
According to your evangelical bible fundamentalism, this seems to be the case.
Eric, if you believe that, all people prior to Jesus will be in hell. Abraham, Isaak, Jacob, Mose, Joseph, Sarah, Noah, Hiob, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. pp.
Now imagine how they are being tortured in the torture chambers of hell. Do you like the idea?
Does it turn you on?
Or do you find it as ridiculous and absurd as I do?
Your evangelical bible fundamentalism is pure nonsense, Eric. Get real!
Question towards Eric and Jason:
Let's consider a concrete example of two people, and you suggest what will happen to them after death, according to your "plan of salvation".
1) An evangelical, faithful member of his congregation, maybe Calvary Chapel. He turns out to be a mass-rapist and child molester.
2) A nice housewife, faithful member of the LDS church, loving, caring to her children and her husband, even helping neighbors where both parents are working, engaged in the ward, social activities, charity.
She may not be perfect, but everyone admires her for her virtue.
So Eric, would you want to meet 1) again in heaven after he raped your daughter, and would you condemn 2 instead?
Maybe discussing this concrete examples will show the difference between evangelical thinking and LDS moral doctrines.
Greets,
Joshua.
Saved souls:
this question goes to both Jason and Eric.
Jason, did you go on a mission? If yes, how many people did you convert to the Church?
Eric, in the course of last year, how many Mormons did you convert to Calvary Chapel?
I am just interested in the statistics. If one of your churches is right, we would see it at the statistics, for Jesus would not leave his True Church alone without success.
Greets, and good luck for your future in 2007.
Brian
Question to Eric:
Am I right with my assumption that your view of Salvation strictly depends on the authenticity of the bible? If the bible is not without error, or if it is not the word of God, all of your religious beliefs and assumptions about God and Jesus are in vain.
And why do believe that it is the word of God?
1) there are a countless number of sacred scriptures in the world. The only reason you have the bible is that it was popular in the US when you were born. If you were born in the middle east, you now probably had an Islamic Fundamentalist Site converting Jews to the one and only Religion, Islam!
2) There is lots of evidence disproving many of the well beloved stories we read in the bible.
There never lived 600000 Jews in Egypt at the time of the Exodus. Jericho was destroyed far before biblical times. There never was a global flood. Many Israelites lived in Israel prior to the Exodus, probably only a small group around Mose came from Egypt.
God has many names in the old testament, because many tribal Gods were merged into one being.
"Jahwe" "Elohim" (plural!), "Lord Zebaoth" to mention only a few.
El, by the way, was a canaanite God, a God which presided over a senat of gods! (cf. psalms!)
3) The canon was designed to fit certain religious beliefs in early christian times.
So not the theology developed out of the bible, but the bible was canonized according to some preheld beliefs. E.g. Gospels which could be interpreted in a doscetic way (e.g., that Jesus only appeared to be human, but in reality was only god!) were eliminated and removed from the canon. So your holy bible is not selected by God but by mere humans who wanted to promote their personal convictions about God.
4) St. Paul gives contradicting accounts of his vision of God, and he has a very bad cv. Why do you accept everything he says, but denies that Joseph Smith was a prophet? Either bad guys with contradicting visions are unacceptable, or you blindly accept them, but your faith is biased!
5) Even if the biblical canon was correct, which it is not ( you not only accept the canonization process blindly, but then choose a canon established 1600 years later! So in your view, for 1600 years a wrong bible existed!), there are thousands of ways to interpret the bible. Every denomination differs in their interpretation.
Is baptism necessary? Catholics and Lutherans think so.
Is the bread changed into Jesus' flesh during Mass? The catholics think so.
Is story XY historical or only kerygmatic? If you ask two theologicians, you will get three opinions.
Of course, only your interpretation (or that of Chuck Smith) is the correct one. All those catholics, Jehovas Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Liberal protestants, they misinterpret the only true interpretation, which is your interpretation. Thus, you deify yourself.
All in all, your view about salvation depends on:
1) the correct choice of a holy book. (Your canon differs from the LDS canon in that they accept the BoM and the D&C as well)
2) Your interpretation of the bible verses.
So, if you had guessed wrong about the bible and the nature of God, you will end in eternal hell, burning with great suffering, tormented night and day, bleeding, crying, shouting in agony, and that only because of your great arrogance "I am holier than they are, my bible, my interpretation, my denomination is the only true one!"
Eric, as you judge, you will be judged, and for you, my friend, I see a very dark future!!!!
Well, it won't be dark, cause fire and brimstone will light it up extremely!
Eric, repent from your arrogance, spit it out like a poison!
My question is:
1) Isn't it a risky guess against all of those facts to believe in your particular calvary god and hope for this narrowed view of salvation (Only through Chuck can we be saved!)
2)Do you worship yourself?
Your bible, your interpretation, your denomination, your-your-your!
Do you have a shrine with your own picture on it???
Just my humble thoughts.
Ronald.
Hey Jason,
I just saw your website. It is really cool. Both the design and especially the multimedia sections are very professional.
Did you hear from people coming to the Lord by your Site?
That would be a great thing, wouldn't it?
Well done, brother!
Aaron
I have a question for Jason:
Jason, do you have a personal relationship with God and Jesus?
If so, why do you think Eric condemns all members of the LDS Church, if his explanation of salvation is based on such a relationship?
Can you assert that you have the very relationship Eric demands for a person to be saved?
It will be an interesting debate.
I am looking forward to it.
Jeremy.
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