...all their creeds were an abomination...
In the official LDS history of Joseph Smith 1:19, Joseph Smith Jr. wrote (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19)
I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
The primary “creeds” that Joseph Smith Jr. was referring to, were the early Christian creeds; the Apostle’s Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed -- all listed below in their entirety.
Note: In these early church creeds, “Catholic” means the universal church of Jesus Christ (the body of believers), not “the Roman Catholic Church”
The Apostle’s Creed (dates to within 50 years of the death of John - the last of Christ’s original apostles)
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
The Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
2. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
3. Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance
4. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit.
5. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
6. Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy Spirit.
7. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate.
8. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
9. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
10. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
11. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
12. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty;
13. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
14. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
15. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
16. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
17. And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
18. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord;
19. so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are three Gods or three Lords.
20. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
21. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
22. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
23. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
24. And in this Trinity none is afore, nor after another; none is greater, or less than another.
25. But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal.
26. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
27. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
28. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
29. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
30. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and made of the substance of His mother, born in the world.
31. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
32. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
33. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
34. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God.
35. One altogether, not by the confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
36. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
37. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
38. He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty;
39. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
40. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
41. And shall give account of their own works.
42. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
43. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D)
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
(More at http://www.reformed.org/documents)
...and the abominations were .... where? One must understand the origins of the early Christian creeds to understand their significance. Joseph Smith Jr. clearly understood their significance -- the Apostle's Creed, so-called because it was the belief system of Christ's apostles -- summed up the belief system of the early Christian church, the very belief system of the apostles who communed with Jesus himself.
And one last note, please take a look at the LDS articles of faith:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1
It’s what you call a “creed.”
posted by Unknown @ 6:05 PM
11 comments
11 Comments:
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Nick before I remove your comments, I just wanted to let you know that your comments show me your insecurity in your belief. Why would you take the time to find my site, post a comment, come back and post again? If you would like to participate in an adult conversation with me or any of the other blog members, feel free to contact us via email and we would be more than happy to dialogue via an audible voice. The reason I am removing your comments is that they hold no truth and mock the very God that created the air you breathe. How about you proclaim what you do believe rather than mock what you don’t know.
-Proverbs 18:2
> Note: In these early church creeds,
>“Catholic” means the universal
> church of Jesus Christ (the body of
> believers), not “the Roman Catholic
> Church”
The Roman Catholic Church is the universal church of Jesus Christ, the body of believers. The authority given by Jesus to Peter was passed on via the succession of Popes. Therefore, "catholic" did not only then mean "universal", it still means universal.
Later sectarian movements like the protestant church did estrange themselves from the real universal church.
To distinguish between "Catholic" and "Roman Catholic" is denying historical facts.
Torsten Waldorf.
Hey there....
Can you show me some historical evidence (outside of catholic writings) that would prove that Peter was ever in Rome?
Hello Eric,
just to clarify:
Do you consider all of the early Church fathers to be "Catholic writers", which in your posts sounds like "biased" ?
If so, then it might be difficult to find sources besides them. If not, I don't know what you take as the basis for your faith, as there is no Christianity without the Church fathers, besides maybe Gnosticism.
But I don't suppose that you are gnostic, are you?
Torsten Waldorf
Hello Torsten, thanks for your input.
You said:
"To distinguish between "Catholic" and "Roman Catholic" is denying historical facts."
To Eric's point, did the apostles have an army? Did the apostles own a state? The creation of the power and wealth of the "Roman Catholic Church" was the creation of a corporate/religious entity that is post Christ, post apostle. It is the creation of men, not the creation of Jesus.
The "Catholic" church (katholicos in Greek) of the apostles was called so because it was the "universal" church of Jesus Christ -- not a corporate/city/state entity, but the body of believers around the globe.
Hence the notation in the original post.
P.S. Torsten-
If people agree on the substance and literal interpretation of the creeds, then in my mind we are members of the body of the "Catholic" church of Christ, irrespective of which "denomination" or "sect" we might identify with (I am an "idependent" Christian to use modern political parlance -- I have not affiliated with any "church body" in the sense that I do not call myself "Baptist" or whatever, but simply a Christian).
I certainly hold a deep respect for the critical role that the Roman Catholic Church has played in sustaining God's Holy Word through time. I am not a Roman Catholic Church member, but I am Catholic in the historic tradition of the Apostolic Creed.
I do not believe that the Roman Catholic Church corrupted the Bible, just the opposite. I do not believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the "great whore of Babylon" as the LDS leaders have professed.
Reformation/Protestant Christians and Roman Catholics have much more in common than not, and if we both profess the saving grace of Jesus Christ as sufficient to cover our sins, and we accept His free gift, God will accept it on our behalf. Amen!
Hello Brian,
"Did the apostles have an army? Did the apostles own a state?"
No, of course not.
This is not a theological, but an organisatorical question.
How can the Holy See as the official descending line of authority from Peter on organize, so that Christians all over the world can benefit and be led in their faith?
The apostles obviously didn't need such things, as Christianity was only a small movement in Asia.
Only in the course of time, when Christianity became a world religion under and after Constantine, the Popes had to think of a viable church structure.
And you can see that church structures naturally develop dependent on the time in which they were born. If you compare, e.g. Catholicism to Mormonism, you clearly see that the Mormon church structure is a product of the new age. When developing, they could make use of new technologies such as satellite broadcasting, whereas in Catholicism, many rituals (such as the election of a new Pope) date way back in time.
The problem I see in many protestants is that they ignore everything which happened after the biblical account ended. They see a sterile, not a living church.
This is why many churches, including Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses and others claim to be descendent of the "Early Church". They simply ignore that the Church DID live on for two millenia, in the form of the Roman Catholic Church.
Of course, the christian church was not founded in Rome, Jesus was a Jewish man living in Israel. He spoke Aramaic, neither greek nor latin.
Nevertheless, ignoring everything which happened after the biblical canon closed is in my point of view an unhistorical perspective, which I cannot agree to.
By the way,
as I read in a discussion further down in the blog between Eric Hoffman and Jeff Wallington, there seems to be a denominational conflict.
Are you also a member of this ominous calvary chapel, Brian?
Torsten-
When we generalize, we do paint with too broad a brush. I no more ignore the events between 33 AD and today, as I ignore the sun rising every day.
As far as Calvary Chapel, I am not affiliated with them, nor do I attend one of their churches, but I know Calvary Chapel pastors and I have not met one that I would not sit and talk with, nor would I avoid their churches if I was in their town. To villify or demonize a denomination because of the behavior of a small group (such as writing of the Church of God because of their past, ignoring their new direction), is your perogative, but not necessarily beneficial.
The pigeon hole that I see a lot of Catholics stuck in, is that they (grossly generalizing) see the Roman Catholic church as the only true church. They share that sentiment with the LDS. Many Orthodox Christians have the same view of their slice of Christiandom, but I say again, if we can agree on the core Apostolic vision of Christ's teachings, what does the pomp and circumstance, or day of the week we worship together matter?
Is God the sole, Almighty creator of all we see and know?
Is Jesus His only begotten son, sent to earth to die for our sins, born human by the virgin Mary; 100% God, 100% man?
Did Jesus die, rise, and then ascend to the right hand of God, to return to judge the world?
Did you accept Jesus' atonement for your sins?
What is left to pick through is largely man made.
Calvary Chapel is man made.
The Roman Catholic Church is man made.
The LDS Church is man made.
Religion is man made.
A relationship with God is ours for the asking. THAT is from God and God alone. Everything else is background noise.
> A relationship with God is ours for
> the asking. THAT is from God and God
> alone. Everything else is background
> noise.
I would agree to that. The church is only a means to increase your relationship to god. Catholic Mass is a symbolical enactment of the gospel truth, so that we can not only rationally think about Jesus, but can EXPRERIENCE the love God, Jesus and Mother Mary have for us.
However, sometimes I wonder if all people who claim to be Christians really are Christian, because they don't show any signs of goodness.
The neverending hatespeeches of some evangelical pastors make me really wonder if that is what Jesus taught.
And I see the problem that Eric also focusses his life only on hatespeeches against the Mormons.
While there certainly are problems with Mormon doctrine (if they were true to the gospel, they would be Catholic), dedicating one's life to a neverending "You are wrong!" blog does in my opinion not show love for anyone, but simply arrogance and non-empathy.
I remember that Eric also spoke negatively about Catholicism in a previos podcast, but don't remember in which it was.
So anyway, I would agree to you that religion is only existing to support one's relationship with Christ, but the bible also teaches us that the church is the place where we can experience the relationship to God Jesus and Mother Mary most authentically.
Torsten
”However, sometimes I wonder if all people who claim to be Christians really are Christian, because they don't show any signs of goodness.”
You have a very good point here! There are a lot who claim to be Christians but act far from it. This is hypocrisy in the eyes of God. So we leave it up to God to judge them.
This statement can be made for the same to just about anyone group of people though. My late grandfather was a very devout catholic. He went to mass every Sunday. He was a leader in the Knights of Columbus. He made his offerings, went to confession…..He was also an alcoholic and used the Lord’s name in vein more than anyone I know. So please don’t narrow your scope of determining the faith by the actions of people.
”I remember that Eric also spoke negatively about Catholicism in a previous podcast, but don't remember in which it was.”
I simply stated that Catholic doctrine is not Christian doctrine. I agree that some Catholics are indeed Christians. You guys accept the deity of Christ….this very important. I just see Catholics put unnecessary traditions in front of truths that will bring freedom from Christ.
Careful my friend as you seem to be somewhat aligning yourself with the Mormons. You should be in my defense, not theirs. Remember the warnings from Paul about following a false Christ. You should be sharing with Mormons the truth as well.
I don’t speak hate. If I do, please provide me the proof.
May the Lord’s grace be with you my friend….
Romans 3:23
-Eric
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