No One Can See God's Face And Live....Well, Sometimes
D&C 84 was penned September 22-23, 1832, covering various topics including the bestowal of the priesthood offices in the LDS Church.
In D&C 84:21-22 Joseph Smith Jr. wrote:
21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh; 22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.
D&C 84:22 says that without the priesthood, no man can see the face of God and live. He makes a veiled reference to Old Testament Bible verses like Exodus 33:20, but ignores the fact that not even Moses saw “God’s face." Please pay close attention to the whole and context of verse 20 -- where God makes NO exceptions for what he says (i.e. “unless you have the priesthood”) the fact is that not even Moses was allowed to see God’s figurative face, nor His Glory and live to tell about it. Surely Moses’ station in God’s eyes was greater than his brother Aaron -- to whom the LDS attribute such great power.
What’s the problem with this? Joseph Smith Jr. claims to have received the priesthood on May 15, 1829.
Joseph Smith Jr. earlier claimed to have seen God face to face in 1820, nine years before he claims that he was given the priesthood; nine years before, according to D&C 84, that he would have had the ordinance and power of godliness to be able to see God face to face and live.
The LDS Church teaches that the restored priesthood will allow men to see God face to face and live, but it would be impossible without it. At the same time they teach that Joseph Smith Jr. saw God face to face and lived, before he held the priesthood.
posted by Eric Hoffman @ 11:34 PM
4 comments
4 Comments:
Eric, you surely never have read the bible in its entirety.
If you had, you would have stumbled over the following verses:
Ex 24:10-11 "And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink."
Which from the following words don't you understand:
They - saw - God !
Of course, you will come up with a cheap excuse of how they didn't really saw God, but only an angel, or that it was Chuck Smith who was appearing to them, but if you took the bible seriously, you would acknowledge what the text says literally:
They saw God!
Good luck in finding excuses for this one!
Gerald
thanks for commenting Jerald as I would be more tha nwilling to dialgue with you.
So I will not get to deep into this because I want some explanations for a comment you made.
Made I will refer you to Exodus 33:20.
Now, you stated:
"...or that it was Chuck Smith who was appearing to them, but if you took the bible seriously, you would acknowledge what the text says literally..."
Why do you choose to bring a personal attack on me? Are you unable to keep this debate at a purely adult level where we are discussing theological differences.
I mean do you really think I believe Chuck Smith appeared before Moses, Aaron, Nabad, Abihu and the seventy elders?
Come on!! I dont believe Chuck Smith is a prophet nor do I think he ever tried to make a prophetic statement. Don't you have a personal feeling on when the rapture and seven years of peace will come? Have you not thought to yourself that you will probably witness the second coming in your life time? I know I have. Does this make me a prophet?
So please explain to me why you would bring Chuck Smith (in whom I have nothing to do with) into this blog?
Hi Eric,
I stated:
Of course, you will come up with a cheap excuse of how they didn't really saw God, but only an angel, or that it was Chuck Smith who was appearing to them, but if you took the bible seriously, you would acknowledge what the text says literally:
They saw God!
I am reading your blog since a few weeks, and have also read Jeff Wallington's comment on Moses Authoritarianism.
The article he posted
http://procinwarn.com/ccclergy.htm
states that Chuck Smith wants to establish a kind of authority in his church in resemblance to the old testament theocratic government.
In the comparison, calvary chapel pastors take a role similar to that of Mose in the old testament.
Now, the bible verse ex 24:10-11 clearly points out that the elders saw God on the mountain.
However, as you were denying this biblical truth, I was mocking this obviously unbiblical opinion by thinking about alternatives.
If they didn't see God, as the bible clearly states, whom could they see?
The standard excuse would be an angel.
But as in the calvary chapel system, the pastors are equal to Mose, who could be equal to God?
Of course, only calvary chapel founder Chuck Smith.
Therefore, I concluded that you must suggest that it was Chuck Smith they have seen.
So my comment was maybe a bit sarcastic, but in its core, it states that you misinterpret bible verses, however, your interpretation does not fit to the verse I quoted.
To point out that your misinterpretation stems from yourself being member of an apostatic religious affiliation, I mentioned Chuck Smith as the founder of this affiliation.
So, removing the sarcastic undertone, my accusation is:
- You have a wrong understanding of this biblical topic.
- The verse I quoted disproves your wrong understanding.
- Your wrong understanding is due to the affiliation to an apostatic religious group.
- You don't recognize that Calvary Chapel is not true Christianity, but promotes a distorted view of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
You obviously don't have any humor.
Gerald
Gerald,
You seem to replace theology with religion. Do you think that the Calvary Chapel I attend is some type of special affiliation?
They teach straight out of the Bible and the pastor does not think he is infallible nor does he think he is the ultimate authority in the eyes of God.
You seem to ignore Moses 33:20
Explain me that scripture...
Actually on second hand, dont.
This conversation is fruitless.
Also my view of the LDS faith has no bearing on whether I attend Calvary. I used to attend Santa Cuz Bible when I lived in California. They would agree that God is not a man and that no one can lay eyes on his fullness and live. Are they a cult as well?
Look...it comes down to this.
Mormons deny Jesus as Lord and are a polythesitic cult...BOTTOM LINE
My heart is that you will know Jesus can save through faith alone, and not of yourself.
I will continue to pray for the Mormon Church...
Grace and Peace to you Jerald
Psalm 18:2
-Eric
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