Wednesday, December 12, 2007

Saved By Faith??

Many Mormons will repeatedly tell investigators of their faith that the Mormon church believes (to a certain degree) that it is only by faith they are saved. What the investigator must understand though is the fact that there is a major language barrier one must scale in order to fully grasp what a Mormon is truly saying.
So the next time a Mormon tells you that his/her church teaches that they are saved by faith, please consider the following statements from LDS officials....

“We have discussed elsewhere that other class of people who are basically unrepentant because they are not ‘doing the commandments.’ They are Church members who are steeped in lethargy…They are doing nothing seriously wrong except in their failures to do the right things to earn their salvation” (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp.211-212).

Many in the world, and even some in the Church, seem to think that eventually the Lord will be merciful and give them the unearned blessing. But the Lord cannot be merciful at the expense of justice” (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 223).

“They [Mormon missionaries] made clear distinction between general salvation or resurrection from the grave and individual salvation or exaltation earned by a man through his compliance with the laws of God. They taught that there are preferential places in heaven as there are on earth and that the highest place or Celestial Kingdom could be attained only by those who faithfully subscribe to and keep all the laws and ordinances Of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and thereby entitle themselves to come into the presence of our God and Jesus Christ, His Son” (Stephen L Richards, Conference Report, April 1941, pp.102-103, brackets mine).

There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anybody go into the celestial kingdom who wants to go there on the works of someone else. Every man must go through on his own merits. We might just as well learn this here and now” (Marion G. Romney, “In Mine Own Way”, Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1976, p.123).

"Many people think they need only confess that Jesus is the Christ and then they are saved by grace alone. We cannot be saved by grace alone, 'for we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do.'" (James Faust, Ensign (Conference Edition), November 2001, p.18).

“There are but few that will be absolutely lost, and that will go with the sons of perdition. Nearly all will be saved in some degree of glory and salvation, just according to what they have earned. That is what we shall receive finally” (Francis M. Lyman, Conference Report, April 1910, pp.32-33).

“The Lord has given to every individual soul power, if he will but exercise it and do the will of the Lord, to earn eternal life” (Francis M. Lyman, Collected Discourses 4:243).

“…after we have been recorded members of the Church we must then work out our salvation and earn eternal life, for it is not obtained without earning it” (Francis Lyman, Conference Report, October 1899, p.35).

“If men are to be rewarded according to their works, then since the works of men vary, the judgments of God must differ. That leads to the doctrine of graded salvation. Every person will inherit a glory of salvation, which will be the one that he has earned” (John A. Widtsoe, Joseph Smith--Seeker after Truth, Prophet of God, p.170.)

“In reality, this doctrine means that we earn and must earn what we get. Salvation must be earned. The plan of salvation is of value to us only as we conform, actively, to its requirements. It has been so throughout the eternities of existence. The spirit of man, seeking progress, has toiled and striven to rise towards his high destiny, the likeness of God. The privilege to come on earth was earned by him. Earth-life was not forced upon him, nor did he receive it as a gift. That doctrine lifts man into the position of kingship. He has labored and won. His battle has resulted in victory. He has the right to walk among kings. This is one of the great doctrines, often forgotten, laid down in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ” (John A. Widtsoe, An Understandable Religion, pp.81-82.)

“This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, ‘It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do’ (2 Ne. 25:23)” (LDS Bible Dictionary, p.697).

“Indeed, it is only after a person has so performed a lifetime of works and faithfulness – only after he has come to deny himself of all ungodliness and every worldly lust – that the grace of God, that spiritual increment of power, is efficacious” (Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert L. Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon 1:295).

“After we have done all that we can do, after we have denied ourselves of ungodliness and worldly lusts, then is the grace of God sufficient for us; then we are sanctified in Christ and eventually made perfect in Christ (see 2 Nephi 25:23; Moroni 10:32)” (Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert L. Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon 2:258).

“The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi: ‘We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do’ (2 Nephi 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to ‘come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.’ When we deny ourselves ‘of all ungodliness,’ then and only ‘then is his grace sufficient’ for us (Moroni 10:32)” (BYU Assistant Professor Clyde J. Williams, “Plain and Precious Truths Restored,” Ensign, October 2006, p.53).

“It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings must be earned” (Thomas Monson, "An Invitation to Exaltation," Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1988, p.53).

12 Comments:

At 7:45 AM, Blogger Bob said...

New day, same junk.

So we are now going to attack the leaders comments to encourage commitment to Christ? Are you saying that people don't actually have to repent and commit their lives to Jesus to be saved? Since your first excerpt is from President Kimball teaching that we must be doing things for salvation, are you saying we don't need to?

62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. Luke 9:62

17 ...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Matt 19:17

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 Jn 5:3

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 12:17

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32 [Test question: Who gets to have the Holy Spirit in their life? Is it those who obey, or those who don't care?]

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Rom 1:5

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Rom 6:16

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Rom 6:17

18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, Rom 15:18

19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all [men]. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. Rom 16:19

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Rom 16:26

6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. 2 Cor 10:6

1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? Gal 3:1

7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? Gal 5:7

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Thes 1:8

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Heb 11:8

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Pet 1:2

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1 Pet 1:14

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1 Pet 1:22

6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. 1 Pet 3:6

12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philip 2:12

17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Pet 4:17

I could literally have added many times these statements from scripture teaching obedience is essential to salvation. And not just docile compliance, because that is not good enough:

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Rev 3:15-16

We must work for our salvation. The opportunity to be saved is a free gift. It is the grace of God. But we must work out our own salvation, in conjunction with the assistance of the Spirit and conforming to the commandments of God. This is done purely by Faith. Faith is the great motivator, our own "first cause". But we must act on that faith, or it dies, being alone. Faith alone, absent obedience, is insufficient to save anyone. But obeying from the heart based on faith yields salvation. It is not that specific "works" are required of any single person, since it is possible for someone to believe and have an attitude of obedience and then die before any specific work is done. But most people DON'T die immediately after conversion, and so their continued obedience demands they be doing good things. Not out of intimidation, but out of gratitude and love and respect and awe of God and Christ. A saved person is an obedient person. And when they sin, as we all do, they repent and move on, because we have an advocate with the Father, even Jesus Christ, who is quick to forgive.

That is the basis each of the LDS leaders and teachers you cite was attempting to explain. Those who read them or hear them completely will see that. How you keep missing this is remarkable. Salvation requires effort on our part. At least, that's what the Bible teaches.

Peace

 
At 2:24 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

Amazing how quoting LDS leaders is to "attack" them. Amazing. LDS folks need to drop the persecution complex and address the issues.

 
At 5:37 PM, Blogger Bob said...

"Amazing...LDS...persecution."

That's what you meant, right? I mean, I am quoting you, right? How could I possibly be miscontextualizing your comments, since I am only quoting you?

The problem with quoting someone is providing the correct sense of what they are discussing. For example, the brethren quoted all believed that obedience included repenting of failures. One of the repeated quotes I see Eric use is from Pres. Kimball, and it is used to illustrate how impossible it is for Mormons to be saved or repeatedly repent: "It is normal for children to try. They fall and get up numerous times before they can be certain of their footing. But adults, who have gone through these learning periods, must determine what they will do, then proceed to do it. To "try" is weak. To "do the best I can" is not strong. We must always do better than we can. This is true in every walk of life." (Miracle of Forgiveness)

That is all well and good, if you want to represent that Mormons believe in personal effort alone to achieve salvation. But that is not the entire quote. The rest of it is the big issue:
"We have a companion who has promised: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." (Matt. 7:7.) With the inspiration from the Lord we can rise higher than our individual powers, extend far beyond our own personal potential."

So we achieve the required perfection through asking God's help, who then provides us the Spirit. Very different from what is usually ascribed to President Kimball's teachings. Which is why, again, Mormons should not trust folks to tell the truth about their faith. They don't. Do they do it maliciously? In most cases, I don't think so, though some probably do. But most critics who mis-state LDS doctrine are sure they know it better than those inside the faith who have studied it. Until, I might add, they get the chance to discuss it with knowledgeable Mormons. Then they accuse the Mormons of lying and covering up "the truth". I have several letters from Eric where he accuses me of deliberately mis-stating LDS doctrine. Yet when I try to engage him to actually clear the air, we get the usual dialog of not being interested in discussing it. He is interested enough to say I intentionally decieve people: "I have absolutely had it with Bob due to his direct dishonesty concerning many theological beliefs surrounding the LDS faith." Eric wrote this to a third party which he copied me. So when I then challenge Eric to defend this personal attack on me, I get complete silence. It is that kind of personal attack and distortion of LDS beliefs, including my own by folks like Eric, which qualifies as persecution. Which is why I challenge Eric at every public opportunity to defend what he says with direct conversation and Christian exchange. The record is clear on that, too, and I believe the reasonable implication is obvious as to why.
Check out www.fairwiki.org if you really want to get documented, authoritative statements in a brief format which links to in-depth support. Or not, its a free country. It's just right to ask people what they believe, rather than to get it wrong telling others about them.
Peace

 
At 3:04 AM, Blogger Unknown said...

SAVED BY GRACE:
Over 3 years ago I dropped into a black hole – four months of absolute terror. I wanted to end my life, but somehow [Holy Spirit], I reached out to a friend who took me to hospital. I had three visits [hospital] in four months – I actually thought I was in hell.

I imagine I was going through some sort of metamorphosis [mental, physical & spiritual]. I had been seeing a therapist [1994] on a regular basis (Family of Origin & EMDR), up until this point in time. I actually thought I would be locked away – but the hospital staffs were very supportive [I had no control over my process]. I was released from hospital 16th September 2004, but my fear, pain & shame had only subsided a little.

I remember this particular morning waking up [home] & my process would start up again [fear, pain, & shame]. No one could help me, not even my therapist [I was terrified]. I asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on me & forgive me my sins. Slowly, all my fear has dissipated & I believe Jesus delivered me from my “psychological prison.”

I am a practicing Catholic & the Holy Spirit is my friend & strength; every day since then has been a joy & blessing. I deserve to go to hell for the life I have led, but Jesus through His sacrifice on the cross, delivered me from my inequities. John 3: 8, John 15: 26, are verses I can relate to, organically.


He's a real person who is with me all the time. I have so much joy & peace in my life to day - after a childhood spent in orphanages. God loves me so much. Fear, pain & guilt are no longer my constant companions. I just wanted to share my experience with you (Luke 8: 16-17).
MICKY - http://micky-clontarf.blogspot.com/

I, MICKY, AM THE HOLY ONE OF GOD.

 
At 5:45 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

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At 2:34 PM, Blogger Eric Hoffman said...

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At 8:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

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At 10:34 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

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At 9:14 PM, Blogger Eric Hoffman said...

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At 5:41 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Eric,
on Mormon matters, there is an interesting short film on Fundamentalism.
With the definition of this film, would you consider yourself to be a fundamentalist?

http://mormonmatters.org/2008/02/08/a-new-take-on-fundamentalism-faith-and-curiosity-orhow-i-love-the-curious/

And if so, does the religious conversion you try to provoke,i.e. converting Mormons to an evangelical belief, change a fundamentalist of one faith into a fundamentalist of another, or does it also provoke curiosity and scrutiny?

Is it ok to question the authority of the Book of Mormon, but not to question the authority of the bible?

I am sorry if my entry is too thought provoking for you.

Baldwin

 
At 12:38 PM, Blogger Eric Hoffman said...

"Gerald, Bladwin"

no need to apologize for your comment. Christianity invites criticism and skepticism, as where Mormonism shies away from it.

I do consider myself a fundamentalist if this term constitutes me believing the bible has absolute authority and that no man can come near to God except by way of His Son.

I also invite people to absolutely question the authority of the bible. I used to be an atheist and my skepticism scrutiny and criticism only lead me further to the truth.

Does this answer your questions?

In Christ,
-Eric
1 Peter 3:15

 
At 1:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just checking to see how evangelizing by spreading hate and prejudice is working for you, Eric. Nice to see some things never change.

 

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