Wednesday, November 14, 2007

The Burden and Yoke of the LDS Faith : Commitment


When LDS and Christians meet in conversation, the differences of the faith systems tend to percolate to the surface rather quickly. The challenge that Christians face with Mormons is in the definition and meaning of various words that we both use, and the painful realization that these words we have in common will often have vastly different connotations for each camp.

Christians often bring up the works required by the LDS faith system in order to reach exaltation, and then the LDS will point to James and say that Christians teach a cheap grace that requires no effort. And thus we begin the "what are works, what do they mean, and what role do they play" carrousel ride.

It dawned on me this morning that when we Christians try to point out the LDS works system, the LDS often leave the conversation as confused as when they started in regard to the Christian position. I think that the key to this issue is pointing out the core of what it is that we are calling works.


MORMONISM IS BASED ON PERSONAL COMMITMENT

In Mormonism there are four key/foundational concepts that drive their works-based lives (all definitions from scriptures.lds.org) based on Christian concepts that have been redefined:
1. Endure = To remain firm in a commitment to be true to the commandments of God despite temptation, opposition, and adversity.
2. Baptism = Baptism is a most sacred ordinance, which a person, having received it, can remember throughout life as a reminder of the personal commitment to Jesus Christ. Its symbolism is beautiful, and its consequences ever so desirable. John the Baptist had the signal honor among all men to take the Son of God into the water and baptize him, after which he saw the Holy Ghost descend upon Jesus. By being baptized Jesus obeyed the law himself, and set the example for all mankind.
3. Covenant = The gospel is so arranged that principles and ordinances are received by covenant placing the recipient under strong obligation and responsibility to honor the commitment. Thus the severe consequences to Ananias and Sapphira, who deliberately broke their covenant and lied unto God (Acts 5: 1-11).
(note the misapplication of Acts 5 - the threat of death to covenant breakers!)
4. Obedience = In a spiritual sense, obedience is doing God’s will.

In this analysis the magic word is Commitment. What can LDS DO today to honor their commitments to the LDS system? Commitment is a promise to DO, DO, DO. "Today I will not sin. Today I will love my wife. Today I will not lose my temper. Today I will keep the Word of Wisdom. And I will not do... I will not do... I will not do..."



CHRISTIANITY IS BASED ON PERSONAL SURRENDER

In the Bible, the Christian walk is based on surrender to the Holy Spirit. Not about what we can do, but about surrendering to Him, our counselor/lawyer/judge. When and if we learn to surrender our days to the Holy Spirit, we are convicted of sinful thoughts, we are convicted of right and wrong, we are led in the direction that God wants us to take. Galations 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Hebrews 8:10 echoed Jeremiah 31:33 - I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.

We do not need to focus on the law -- the schoolmaster (Galations 3:24), if we are listening and surrendering to the Holy Spirit ... like following a car to an unknown location, the work involved on our part is in following -- making sure we stay close and watch the signals.

The Jesus of Mormonism came with arms-full of more commandments to follow -- he did not bring forgiveness but amplified the message of the Old Covenant.

The Jesus of Christianity brought freedom through the New Covenant.

Where Mormonism stresses the 4 key DO's; Endure, Baptism, Covenant and Obedience, it produces slavery to the law through works, versus the meaning of those same words in Christianity, the New Testament stresses the Lord's New Covenant plan for us, to have us surrender ourselves to His will.

Jesus said, in Matthew 11:28-30
28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

10 Comments:

At 9:10 PM, Blogger Bob said...

I know you probably will "moderate" this out of existence, but once again you have focused on something completely unBiblical.

The word surrender, or any form of it, does not appear anywhere in the Bible.

The word commit, or its forms like committed, etc, appears over 160 times.

19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. (1 Peter 4:19).

The same Greek word translated as commit above is also translated as commend:
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. (Luke 23:46).

One of the synonyms for Commit is Entrust, which "implies committing with trust and confidence" (Webster online Dictionary).

This is a case where Mormons are just clearly and literally more Biblical than their critics. Cool. I am committed to Christ.
Bob

 
At 9:59 AM, Blogger Eric Hoffman said...

Bob,
You seemed to have missed the entire point to this post.
If you want to over contextualize and distract the topic in a word game then please stick to your own blog.
You know as well as I do what Brian is attempting to convey in this post.

In Him,
-Eric

 
At 5:28 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

Bob, yawn. Statistics? God's word is a statistical game for you? No form of it in the Bible? Which translation Bob? There is no form of Surrender to be found in the Bible Bob? No Greek for it? Perhaps humility would better suit you?

Acts 20:19
"Serving the Lord with all humility of mind..."

Eph 4:2
"...with humility and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love..."

Phil 2:3
"...let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in humility let each esteem other better than themselves..."

Shall I continue? Sure...

Col 2:23
"Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

Col 3:12
"Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved , bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;"

1 Peter 5:5
"Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble."

Humility. Meekness. Submitting yourself. Subject to one another? Sounds like surrender to me Bob.

LDS teachers have spoken of "surrendering" to the Lord? I wonder where they plucked that word from?

Henry B. Eyring
"It takes at least some humility, some willingness to surrender to the Savior’s will for us."
Gospel Library>Magazines>Ensign>May 1999

Henry B. Eyring
"I knew that we must surrender our will. “Thy kingdom come."
Gospel Library>Magazines>Liahona>January 2001

Neal A. Maxwell
"...The surrender of the mind is actually a victory, because it then introduces us to God’s stretching and “higher” ways!"
Gospel Library>Magazines>Liahona>July 2002

Neal A. Maxwell
"Oh, brothers and sisters, the awaiting emancipation of such trusting surrender!"
Gospel Library>Magazines>Liahona >November 2002


Of course we all know that the Bible is on the LDS bookshelf, but the above revelations of 'surrender' may just as well have come out of any one of the prophet's mouths* (*after being ratified of course), or the other Standard Works.

When you play these disingenuous word games, preying on those who might read this and who may perhaps be ignorant of the Bible and of true LDS teachings, you are not being truthful Bob.

 
At 6:55 AM, Blogger Bob said...

Oh please, my point is precisely the silly word games that typically go on with anti-Mormons. You pick a word, in this case "surrender". Then you waste everyone's time by creating this strawman that somehow Mormons don't believe they should "surrender" to Jesus, but they are so "committed" that they feel they must stick to their Church, not Jesus. Are we to seriously believe that you think Mormon leaders don't teach that we are to surrender our wills to Jesus to be saved? Are you seriously suggesting that our commitments to Christ are not done in humility, in the sense of personal surrender to His divine will? Are you seriously suggesting Mormons don't believe salvation is only possible through Jesus Christ, no matter what "great" works we may personally render? If you think any of those things, you are completely ignorant of LDS teachings. Rather than playing "word games" about these concepts, just try to read LDS leaders about the need for surrender and humility concerning our personal wills. But don't lie about the Bible's teachings either. Any man not committed to Christ cannot be saved.

You perceive LDS commitment to the physical Church. Mormons don't. They DO what they do out of a sense of duty to Christ. There are, of course, individuals who don't "get it" and are obedient for the wrong reasons. Shawn McCraney was such a person, and I know many who are like that still in the Church. But the spiritually immature are not whom you were talking about within the Church. You actually teach that Mormons believe it is more important to be committed to the LDS Church and its programs than it is to be committed to Christ and humbly submit our wills to him. And in this you are completely wrong, which is why no active Mormon that I have ever met who understands LDS doctrine is moved by the anti-Mormon drivel they encounter. You simply are ignorant of what Mormonism teaches or those within its numbers believe, once they are truly converted.

That has always been my gripe with your website Eric and Brian. You really don't know what you are talking about, yet you continue to attack. And that, my friends, is the pride of your hearts talking.

But tell you what. What don't you have another podcast where non-Mormons tell us what we Mormons believe. Heaven knows you don't want to have real Mormons on a podcast, since I have personally offered many times when precisely this kind of baloney comes up. Get Bill or Shawn to tell us again what I "really" believe. Since neither was ever a real convert to Mormonism, they speak with as much authority on the subject as you do. More of the same does not make these attacks on Mormonism's teachings true.

 
At 7:02 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

The word games are on the LDS side Bob. Every time someone summarizes the LDS TEACHINGS (note: I did not say "what you believe") the response is something like:

1. You don't exactly have that right.
or
2. You are misrepresenting what XYZ said.
or
3. Same old Anti-Mormon blather, different day.

The LDS Church teaches devotion to the Church over a relationship with Jesus Christ. That is the bottom line. That is why it is that we do what we do. We are not "anti-Mormon" as you like to accuse, we are ANTI-MormonISM, because it is not Christian even though it claims to be.

But to your larger point Bob, we don't know what we're talking about. We're idiots. Whatever you say. I know that I am a walking, talking donkey. You are far superior in your knowledge and powers of logic and reason. So why bother with reading or posting here? The only person wasting their time here, your words, seems to be you. So don't -- or continue to, whatever you please.

I do pray for you, and that the other LDS will find the truth and the true grace of Jesus.

 
At 9:22 PM, Blogger Bob said...

Nice victim stance.

"Oh, let me feign submission to mock the Mormons even more."

Yeah, real Christ-like.

You know more about the LDS Church than people such as myself who have studied it for over 30 years.

Better, you have honed an ability to ignore the teachings of the Church's leaders to impute your own doctrines upon it. I agree with you. You are a donkey, and I am superior in my ability to use logic and reason. It comes with formal training, so don't be so hard on yourself, OK? I suspect you are better at making excuses to justify violating Peter's admonition or Paul's examples on missionary work than I am. But I am pretty good. But even if that were not the case, you are still wrong, and pridefully so. And that is the real tragedy with you guys.

Bruce R. McConkie, in his last conference address before his impending death, read a poem he had written, now an LDS hymn, #134. "I believe in Christ". Strangely, from your perspective, it is not about the LDS Church. You might want to read it someday to see where Mormons' minds focus when they are in trials. They turn to God and Christ. But the folks you read wouldn't know anything about that.
Hey, I have been to the page 5 times in the last 2 days, no doubt doubling your traffic. Lighten up. Heck, no one is reading this stuff, so why not take a chance and actually try to learn about Mormons. Shoot, you might even be able to save your annual URL fees if you find out what we actually believe. Why is it that every time I agreed to talk on podcasts with Eric, he backed away, after we did the first one? Hmm, could it be it does not fit the profile here to actually engage in discussions with folks actually knowledgeable in LDS doctrine and practice? Don't worry. These are just rhetorical questions. The answers are obvious.
Peace and out.

 
At 9:56 PM, Blogger Eric Hoffman said...

Bob,
If I had a dime for every time you say people are mocking, attacking, belittling, making fun of, slamming....etc mormons, I would be...well, a guy with a ton of dimes.
Set down the urim and thummim magical LDS goggles and try to see through the fog.
We are not out to attack your church but rather save souls. Bob, I don't know if you are aware of this, but we actually think you are going to hell. It's concerning, Bob. So inject all the humanistic thought you want into this. The fact is we are concerned. Ya, ya, ya, I know. You are going to come at us with this "Jesus was never critical of other faiths," when the fact is he rejected the very heretical and legalistic ideas your faith teaches.

So please Bob... Do the right thing. Ditch the bar coded temple card and magic undies and come to Christ.

Grace and peace
-Eric
Galatians 4:16

PS... podcast? I'm bored by you. But sure if it makes your chest puff and feel like you have won, then by all means, let me lay aside my pride so that you may feel greater than I.

 
At 9:02 AM, Blogger Bob said...

I guess my parents raised me differently, and by the way, they were not LDS.
Do you actually believe you are behaving in a Christ-like manner when you say: "Ditch the bar coded temple card and magic undies and come to Christ."
Definition of mocking: "1: to treat with contempt or ridicule : deride"

How can it be that we believe ours is the "only true church", but we don't believe you are going to hell? Yet you, in the "not only true church" believe I will be going to hell, though I believe in the Biblical Jesus, accept his teachings and affirm a life changed by those teachings?

The problem for you, and whether you are bored by me or not is not much of an issue, is that when we actually engage in a Bible based discussion, you can't make any valid points in support of your views of a salvation requiring no personal responsibility for obedience, and you cannot make any valid points from that Bible which in the least contradict LDS beliefs. I have had a couple of people listen to the one podcast we did. It is obvious that you guys wound up being used as a proverbial mop for the mat, even though you took the majority of time speaking. Every time you whip out "Miracle of Forgiveness" to show how strict the LDS beliefs are, you wind up looking deceptive when read in context. The original topic we ever discussed was the blatant mis-use by you and your "ministry" of the word "aparabatos", or unchanging, which you falsely believed meant "non-transferrable", and would therefore have meant the Melchizedek priesthood could not be given to anyone else. That you were thoroughly convinced it was THE "gotcha" doctrine about the LDS Faith at the time we met is well documented from your statements at the time. That you were completely wrong is equally documented.

Forgive my impertinence at your "deep" understanding of the LDS faith and the teachings of the Bible, but you have a track record of being wrong about a lot of things. Making fun of my and other LDS sacredly held beliefs is just another one of them. The fact you ignore the actual teachings and examples of Biblical missionary work in your obsessive quest to attack Mormons is certainly false.

Whatever it is you believe about me going to hell which causes you to be disrespectful of the sincere beliefs of others, well I can categorically tell you you have a false religion. Mine may be false in your eyes, but yours is false in everyone's eyes. Well, everyone except other people who also think the words "meekness and respect" in regards to missionary work means "confrontation and mocking".

I don't really do this to convert you. I do this because anyone reading this can easily detect who is dedicated to trying to get the truth out, and who just wants to be careful not to have to back up the things they say by being challenged to support the assertions. I keep offering the podcast thing not because I expect you would ever do another one, but because it is another area where you run your ministry in the opposite direction from Paul. When Paul was accused of sounding bold in letters but would be actually timid in person, he said to the Church: I will clean house when I get there. By contrast, when you assert something and are challenged, you respond by saying "I don't want to defend it, leave me alone on my unwatched website to say what I want." Seems kind of funny to me.

When you actually want truth as much as you want to breathe, you will stop letting others think for you, and will seek out the truth for yourself.

Bob

 
At 2:40 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

By LDS standards, even Jesus wasn't "Christ-like" when he said "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Who was he talking to? Thin air? No, the Jewish PRIESTHOOD HOLDERS, which smacked of the modern LDS Priesthood ego trip, thanks to Joseph Smith's replacement theology and his fabrication of the mythical American Zion.

There are basically two type of LDS people:
1. The beaten-down, buried in works, knowingly unworthy and incapable sinners, seeking righteousness, truth and Jesus, and
2. The likes of you Bob; the band of righteous LDS priesthood holders who have it all together.

More power to you man. When it comes down to it, as witnessed here, this ministry is not for you.

Why didn't he just come right out and say everything point blank?! Because only those who were truly seeking would try to figure out what he was talking about. The people who were out to get a high from watching a miracle were the first to fall away when things got uncomfortable. But you have to unconditionally trust the truth of the Bible Bob -- or even Jesus' teachings in it are suspect (thanks to the open-ended caveat 'as far as it is translated correctly').

In my book the prideful LDS priesthood types have their quads and manuals, they have their endowment, and they have their eternal chart plotted and are godhood bound ... and more power to ya man.... even though it makes me weep, I have to turn my back and keep on keeping on.

I am not here to bicker with you Bob. So, go one posting what you think are truth inoculations for the seekers that happen by this little corner of the Internet, but God's Word will win in the end.

 
At 6:44 AM, Blogger Bob said...

Let's see if we can make some sense of this.

During Jesus' lifetime, he said to the disciples to go to no one except the Jews (Matt 10:6). He worshiped in the Temple, acknowledged the authority of the Aaronic priesthood, and attended synagogue. From the writings of the OT he attacked the teachers of the Jewish community for hypocrisy in not following what they taught.

You, on the other hand, don't accept the authority of Mormons, don't believe in their scriptures or their use of the Bible, don't attend their services and certainly don't believe their Temples represent the fulfillment of Biblical worship and ordinances.

And you say these are related?

Peter warned Christians that the only proper means of sharing the Gospel was with gentleness and respect (1 Pet 3:15). Paul never once criticizes anyone who is not a baptized member of the Christian community attending the recognized Christian church, or the leaders of Judaism, which he felt was "proto-Christian".

He believed those who worshipped idols or had false ideas of god were to be taught "about" Jesus, not their faiths "taught against". We have his example that after 3 years living in Ephesus, when the silversmiths tried to have him killed, the town clerk asked them to bring any witnesses who could testify to hearing Paul preach against Diana.

They could find none. (Acts 19:36-41)

Even the "Judaizers" of the early Christian Church were members of the congregations. They were corrupting doctrines "within" the Church, not establishing new churches outside it.

Which leaves this "ministry" of yours exactly where it started. Nowhere. You are not Biblical. You are not Christ-like. You are not "Bible based missionaries". You are simply folks who don't accurately teach about Mormons, or follow the Biblical model in your attacks on the Mormons.

If you want to be a Christian, follow what Christ and his appointed leaders taught. Teach Christ. Don't teach against others. The example you are following from the Bible is that of the apostate Jews who did not become Christians, and the silver smith idol worshipers of Ephesus in attacking other belief systems they disagree with.

Is that really the "Biblical" missionary model you wish to follow?

Paul's model was nothing like your's:
30 ¶ "And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him." Acts 28:30-31

Slice it as you like. You don't follow the Bible in your attacks on Mormons.

 

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